Heartbroken by Ireland’s tragic crash-out last week, I forgot about putting up a new post yesterday. So this is a rushed affair.
Further reading
Don’t miss Deebee’s analysis of the quarter-finals, or Utnapistm’s predictions for this weekend.
On the telly this week
Friday 25th October
| Ulster v Cardiff | 19:35 | S4C / Premier Sports 1 |
| Munster v Ospreys | 19:35 | TG4 / Premier Sports 2 |
| Bath v Exeter | 19:45 | BT Sport 1 |
Saturday 26th October
| England v New Zealand | 09:00 | ITV |
| Dragons v Glasgow | 14:45 | Premier Sports 2 |
| Gloucester v Wasps | 15:00 | BT Sport 1 |
| Treviso v Kings | 15:00 | FreeSports |
| Connacht v Cheetahs | 17:15 | TG4 / Premier Sports 1 |
| Zebre v Leinster | 17:15 | Premier Sports 2 |
| Edinburgh v Scarlets | 19:30 | Premier Sports 2 |
Sunday 27th October
| Wales v S Africa | 09:00 | ITV |
| Leicester v Saracens | 15:00 | BT Sport 1 |
Ovally Balls 
@Jamrozik
ahem
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Much better.
(She’s a she, by the by.)
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I’d say England are favourites for next week on form.
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Some classic inebriated reasoning there Dov.
Sounds sore, though.
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So sore.
Sympathy in short supply understandably
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@tomp
My mistake. In my head I imagined someone like Slavoj Zizek
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Dov – admit it, you were trying to do an Ash splash off the roof.
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I think the final is too close to call. Obviously if England play as well as they did on Saturday, you’d expect them to win, but can they produce that level of performance consistently? They really haven’t in recent memory. The Boks look very strong in the contact area, but they will need to show more in attack than they did against Wales, because England will probably be smarter in dealing with their kicking game.
To beat this SA team, I think you have to emphasise attack, as we did against NZ, rather than defence, as we did against Aus. If I were Eddie, which admittedly I’m not, I think I’d stick with Ford-Faz. Yes there might be a few charges down Ford’s channel but they should be able to set themselves for that and Ford’s defending has been very good all tournament. Having them both makes both our kicking and running games stronger, and this will be important as we will need to mix up kicking and running in response to the Boks’ kicking and territory game. Plus Slade has looked a bit out of sorts to me all tournament. I’d also stick with Dave Lawes for 60 minutes, on the basis that if we win, it will be through being quicker and more dynamic around the park. If May is out, I’d move Daly to the left wing and bring Nowell in at FB (assuming he’s fit).
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@dab
Damn, I lost that bet. I owe Killer a fiver.
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Wouldn’t look back at that November 2018 game too closely, Deebee.
No NH players in your team, Am out injured so the defence was lined up differently.
Ivan van Zyl starting instead of Faf meant you only kicked the ball 27 times. Completely different plan now.
So what you’re saying is that we’re way stronger now than last December? We’re nailed on favourites, is what you’re trying to suggest? I’m not having it.
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Saturday will be quite a match up, one team definitely improving on last season, particulalry around 6N time. Young backrow talent has allowed a backline full of potential to flourish.
The other side somewhat struggled in a game they’d have long been expected to win, but recent form in that fixture has been fickle. Will they get their match winners/match turners back for Saturday?
Embra away to Benetton, tough one to call until we see the lineups
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Dova! On the roof!!
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Has Cockanasiga played in the RWC?
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‘Embra away to Benetton, tough one to call until we see the lineups’
Pfft. We’ll stuff them. up their holes etc.
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He played against the US. I had to check.
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Nah. If anything the other way. Their pack is way stronger than it was for that game and they had Ben Apostrophe in the centres. South Africa should seek to withdraw from the match as their task is impossible.
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Ran in a couple of tries v the plucky unfairly scheduled Americans, no?
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McConnachie also played in that I think.
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Imagine we may get a smattering more WC players back in harness. Perhaps a Toolis, a Barclay or a Berghan who didn’t see much action
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@TomP – agreed. We’re completely stuffed. Unless there’s a miracle. Like Cheslin Kolbe being fit – which it looks like he may be!
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McConnochie not the way I spelt it. Didn’t dare go for the first name.
Much prefer it when England, or any team, pick wingers whose names I’m confident about spelling. Watson and May over Big Joe and Big R McC. Fraance with Raka and Penaud over Big Sof G and Wales with North and Adams over Amos.
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TomP – ‘Siga the Winger is easy enough
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I’d be happier with May vs. Kolbe than Daly vs. Kolbe………………………………
I agree that my man has looked sub par – but Eddie likes him and I think a fit Slade will play some part to deceive the Boks midfield
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who is reffing the final?
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I think the officiating team’s named tomorrow, Sladey. Last week they announced it on Tuesday.
Garces or Nige look the best bets. Maybe Poite.
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I hope it’s Nige because the breakdown will become a mess otherwise
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Stop it, TomP. Not Garces. Just cause we got one win from him, doesn’t mean we’re suddenly confident with him in charge. At one stage the penalty count had blown out to 9 or 10 to 5 against us and Wales were looking very solid and in charge. I was having nightmares with my eyes open. Sober me doesn’t react well to things like that. Drunk me is probably worse, to be fair, but I wouldn’t know.
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Graun says that May will be fit, in which case I’d keep the same 23.
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Deebee, It wouldn’t be a World Cup final without a seriously contentious decision that leaves one set of fans seething for years and bemoaning the referee.
Speaking of which,
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The stadium lights in Yokohama:
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@Tomp – He was in touch! We can all accept that.
2003 – now there was contentious refereeing. Andre Watson did his best to cheat England out of that win, the heinous oaf.
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“Well, guys, can you just send my best wishes to Warren to make sure he enjoys the third and fourth place play-off?”
Eddie didn’t choose the thug life….
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Lots of stuff being written about England’s reponse the Haka.
I love the Haka, it’s one of the great things in sport, but I don’t think teams should have to stand just stand there, it’s a challenge, take up the challange, and as long as you don’t go full Cockers, have at it
This is my favourite of all time, sadly I don’t think WR would allow it now
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Dab, you just have a beef with Andre Watson? The average Bok fan has a beef with every ref who is perceived to have done us in. From personal memory that goes back to Clive Bloody Norling and his infamous penalty in 1981. Bok fans will tell you that we get screwed over by French refs (Garces’ record before Sunday adding to the conspiracy theory), Welsh refs (Norling being the 1st of many), Kiwi and Aussie refs, with the infamous “let’s teach the jarpies a lesson” email-gate being brandished with aplomb (well flung about anyway), Irish refs (can’t remember the trigger for that, but it’s there somewhere), who else? Obviously English refs are continuing the Anglo-Boer War through the whistle and the Scots don'[t have any refs, so that’s them off the hook – for now.
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Just whilst I wind up for Ref-gate this weekend, I can’t think of any refs from the PI nations reffing top level games? Any particular reason for this?
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I think the yellow card should be renamed a ‘Bakkies’, and the red a ‘Botha’.
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I agree largely with Yosoy about Wales. It was just a game too far. I also agree with (I think) Slade that Wales had no choice but to go with the gameplan that they did.
Unfortunately, the halves kicked poorly, SA halves kicked well. Halfpenny aside, Wales dropped too many catches, SA dropped fewer.
Wales, almost miraculously, had their chance to win at 16 all and 70+ minutes but, as they had all game, the magnificent SA defending knocked Wales back in contact and they lost ground on 4 carries out of 5
Great composure from SA to close the game out in the end.
Wales lost the set piece, breakdown, kicking battle, and, after North went off, they had little to no attacking threat. Did very well to compete with SA for so long.
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Iks – two yellows can be called a Poite after his outrageous yellows against Bismarck for having the temerity to tackle Dan Carter.
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Deebee, I remember a Super Rugby game where Dane Coles was penalised and he asked the ref, “Are we not allowed to tackle Dan Carter?”
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Looking forward for Wales, I fear that a regression to the mean is coming (where is FD nowadays?)
Too many of their best are close to retirement or permacrocked. Gatland and Edwards will be sorely missed.
Some (trisk?) have drawn parallels with Ireland, in that they too say goodbye to an iconic coach and legends to be stalwarts. Difference is that Ireland’s foundations are good. 2 provinces who are amongst the best and 2 that are ok to decent. Sound finances and a considered development plan. Plenty of prospects coming through. No doubt some lean years ahead for the national team, but they will be there or thereabouts in the 6N again soon
Wales, on the other hand, have 1 ok(ish) region and a few others who are not. Struggling financially. Few likely replacements when their greats move on. Pivac is a good coach, but not a miracle worker. Gatland’s greatest achievement is building teams that can compete with anyone, and best most, with foundations that are shaky to say the least
Add to this: England are clearly excellent, France are on the up on the back of Ntamack, Penaud, Ollivon and the rest of the youngsters. They will be a force to be reckoned with. 6N wise, I see a return to the mid 90s “le crunch”
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“I can’t think of any refs from the PI nations reffing top level games? ”
They all get scholarships to Japanese schools.
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I think Nige is still the best ref and wouldn’t mind seeing him do the final again
That said, despite all the stuff on here to the contrary, I think the 3 French refs, Garces, Poite and Reynal, are all excellent too. All of them would be good in the final
Angus Gardner is a very good ref and would probably be my choice (given that Nige has had his final last time)
Ben O’Keefe is excellent, but maybe lacking a bit of experience.
Barnes is a top ref but, obviously, not this time. Thankfully Peyper is not possible.
Just hope Ben Skeen is not TMO, but I suspect it likely he will be
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1981, though, Deebee. That’s nothing. I give you 1978 – Roger, spit, Quittenton. And the famous John West, canned tuna company owner and blind Irish referee, in 1974.
NZ’s founding rugby myth, of course, is the Deans Try that Never Was in 1905.
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Just after Martin Hall was selected as Wales RL captain in the 1990s he went on a stag do to Dublin with a few of my mates. They quizzed him on his Welshness and the only famous Welsh person he could name was Max Boyce.
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Agree Utna. The change coming up will be massive at the sharp-end regarding leadership style, work ethic and team culture. Gats, Howler, and Shaun all going at once means a full rebuild, and the foundations are pretty shaky in the Regions, although I can’t say much about the development/youth programmes in place.
New beginnings obviously start with a lot of endings too, and it will take time and some patience for the next leadership group to figure out what they want to keep, and apply what they want to do entirely differently.
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Anyone know what has happened to Howley after coming home?
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@craigs
He’s probably just collected his winnings.
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The age group sides show up pretty well, Iksy. Big worry is the number of kiddies lured over the border by posh English schools and the facilities at places like Hartpury.
From this current squad Owens, AWJ, Brad, Shingler, Tips (maybe), JDII (probably), Parkes and Halfpenny won’t see another World Cup on age grounds. That’s about a third of the current squad. Taulup’s also 28 but should be like Vermeulen, missing lots of games but still a class player.
As always our problem will be one of size of player coming through. Pivac’s Scarlets played glorious stuff a couple of years back. Fingers crossed
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@Iks
I agree, but I genuinely don’t see where Wales go from here. If we look at the Gatland years, and as someone else said, there a 3 teams (albeit with many crossovers in terms of players):
1. The ’08 team. Gatland inherited a team full of attacking talent (Gav, Shane, BiMI, Martyn Williams, Geth, Kevin Morgan aaarrRyan Jones, Stephen Jones) but with little professionalism and no mental discipline and a number of other players who just weren’t up to it. Gats and Edwards did what any top coaches would do and kicked their arses into shape and wielded the axe as needed. Results followed but a few years on the many key players were gone
2. The “Warburton team”. 2011 onwards. A blended approach and the team Gats actually built. Back row at the heart of everything (Warbs, Lydiate/Tipuric, Faletau..) Super fit, super professional, great defence, decent attack, lacked depth. Achieved some great things, but ended being (in Yosoys words) “team stale” Over reliant on Jamie Roberts, little variation, not much depth when players got injured
3. The “AWJ team” 2015 onwards. The greatest team in terms of heart, commitment, drive and passion. Mental strength, never say die attitude, solid set piece, superb swarming defence. Depth as well in many areas. Attack dependent on a few individuals (JD2, Liam, Tipuric).
Looking forward, I don’t know where Wales go in terms of building. Their defence won’t disappear, even with Edwards gone. Their set piece will remain decent, but not good enough to really DOMINATE opponents. Back row (well flankers) will continue to excel. But there are no obvious ball carriers emerging in the forwards. Post AWJ and Owens, the front 5 is workmanlike but nothing more
Halves – Tomos Williams and Patchell should become the starters but, age aside, it’s not a massive change from what they have (nippy 9 with an inconsistent kicking game, controlling but limited 10).
Don’t know where they find centres to replace JD2 or even Parkes (Watkin has been decent, but nothing more). And wings? Adams is a great finisher. Not sure what else we have? At FB , Liam (if fit) +………
So, a decent enough team, but I cannot see much improvement or progression at a time when England, NZ, and maybe France and SA are taking their game to new levels.
We all know what happens in the 4th AI when AWJ doesn’t play……..
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