The briefest of all possible previews.
Georgia v Fiji
Fiji are a very good side, but have not played a test match due to their Covid problems. Georgia were much improved last week. Georgia by 5.
Ireland v Scotland
Both sides looking rather pedestrian at the moment. With the inexplicable void where Hamish McFuckface should be, as well as the return of Sexton and Ireland’s home advantage (and despite the dropping of McCloskey), Ireland by 10.
Wales v Italy
Wales by 25. You know why.
England v France
With France putting out a C side, there is not much doubt: England by 15. Although I suspect France will throw some surprises England’s way.
Onna telly this week
Friday 4th December
| Bristol 18 – 17 Saints | ||
| Connacht 31 – 14 Treviso |
Saturday 5th December
| Australia v Argentina | 08:45 | Sky Sports Arena |
| Georgia v Fiji | 12:00 | Sky Sports Arena |
| Ireland v Scotland | 14:15 | Amazon Prime |
| Bulls v Cheetahs | 14:30 | Sky Sports Arena |
| Leicester v Exeter | 15:00 | BT Sport Extra |
| Wasps v Newcastle | 15:00 | BT Sport Extra |
| Worcester v Bath | 15:00 | BT Sport Extra |
| Wales v Italy | 16:45 | S4C / Amazon Prime |
| Golden Lions v Western Province | 17:00 | Sky Sports Arena |
| Glasgow v Dragons | 19:15 | Premier Sports 1 |
Sunday 6th December
| England v France | 14:00 | Amazon Prime |
| London Irish v Sale | 14:30 | BT Sport Extra |
| Gloucester v Harlequins | 16:15 | BT Sport 1 |
Ovally Balls 
“Hardly a massive pot to select from.”
Well several of them have been shit, one in particular…
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Gerard Houllier RIP
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I hope France get one of NZ or SA, and then one of Argentina or Fiji. Don’t want to see another rehash of the 6N or autumn cup.
In any case, if you want to the champ, you’ve got to beat the best. So, be it.
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“In any case, if you want to the champ, you’ve got to beat the best.”
Great untrue sporting cliches of our time.
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Deebee, you’re a glutton. You can’t get Argentina AND Fiji. It’s one or the other.
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CMW, sure sometimes the best teams cancel one another, allowing weaker ones to progress, but name a team that was better than the ones who were crowned?
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Nzwere a better team than SA in 2007. I think also than SA in 1995, but on that occasion the Boks did beat the best.
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Well several of them have been shit, one in particular…
’87 – First one and although still pretty amateurish, a great boost for the game;
’91 – Pretty shit;
’95 – Brilliant from start to finish, an absolute classic;
’99 – France upsetting the Kiwis, the Boks getting out-Bokked in the drop kicking stakes, Samoa beating Wales, what’s not to like? Other than Australia winning the whole thing;
’03 – pity it was cancelled, there were a couple of decent NH sides for a change;
’07 – France upsetting the Kiwis, Argentina doing Ireland, England recovering from a thrashing by the Boks to make it to the Final, losing gallantly to the Boks – great tournament;
’11 – pretty shit;
’15 – Japan beating the Boks, otherwise pretty shit;
’19 – first WC in Asia, fabulously organised by all accounts, even the meticulous planning around reserve days in case of hurricanes etc, England walloping the ABs then getting walloped by the boks – an all-time classic tournament;
So my detailed, impartial analysis shows that ’95, ’07 and ’19 were probably the best by far, some other excellent tournaments and just ’91, ’99, ’11 and ’15 pretty shit, with a couple of highlights each.
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Good work Deebs, but it is easier for you as you don’t have to find an argument for all of them being shit.
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“Christian Louboutin is the next guest to be introduced. “Your shoes are renowned in the world. I believe you draw inspiration from different horizons. Have you ever been inspired by a match?” he’s asked. He turns out not to have been inspired to design a shoe by a game of rugby.”
It won’t get any better than this.
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France in pool A draws Italy. Shit.
Argentina in pool C, Fiji in D.
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What’s the point of this 2023 World Cup? France have already won it I think.
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CMW, a lot of people say the Kiwis were better than us in 2007, but the Boks peaked very nicely at the World Cup, scoring more than 30 points in every match bar the Final, where they were content to simply play without the ball in England’s patch. New Zealand fell short in the QF against France in Wales. There were four teams that got further than them. A losing QF doesn’t entitle you to be called the best at the tournament. Maybe most surprising losers, but not best in class.
You could argue the same in 2019 when the Kiwis beat us in the pool stages, but again didn’t go all the way, getting blown away by England in the SF. In both tournaments you’d have to say that whilst they had wonderful players, they choked or lost concentration at crucial moments and were beaten fair and square. Especially 2019 – monstered.
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We’re definitely in Pool C
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Ireland with Scotland, Aus with Fiji, and Japan with Argentina.
Now for the big boys….
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NZ, France and Italy.
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Nz with France! Great!
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SA, Ireland and Scotland
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There we go. Third tournament in a row we have Australia in the group. Fifth tournament in a row we play Fiji in the group.
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@Deebee – you can always say that whoever makes the final are the two best teams, but it’s a tough one to always make convincing. I would add that in 1999 Aus won without beating the best as NZ were a better side than France if not necessarily better than Aus, but France had one half of incredible inspiration which is the sort of thing that makes sport worth watching (i.e. the ‘best’ team not always winning).
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And there it is, same old same old.
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Pool A
New Zealand
France
Italy
America 1
Africa 1
Pool B
South Africa
Ireland
Scotland
Asia-Pacific 1
Europe 2
Pool C
Wales
Australia
Fiji
Europe 1
Final qualifier winner
Pool D
England
Japan
Argentina
Oceania 1
Americas 2
Well, we’re fecked. Out in the pool stages I reckon. Pools C&D have some intriguing fixtures, but it looks like New Zealand and France from Pool A, Scotland and Ireland from Pool B, Wales and Fiji from Pool C and England and Argentina (probably) from Pool D.
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Possibly Argentina and Japan from Pool D.
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A bit deflated after that draw, it’s too familiar.
Except from England’s group, I can’t see where the surprises might come from.
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3 years away. Remember how bad SA were in 2016.
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A swifter deflation I’ve yet to see.
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@TomP – assuming pools A and B are paired for QFs then they’ll probably get both!
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And Flair didn’t say he wanted both…
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Was the order in which the games will be played determined as well?
Am thinking about the nations with serious ambitions but a smaller pool of players ( Scotland, Wales, Japan etc..). Easier for them to spring a surprise early on when their best players are still fit.
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France will get either SA or Ireland in the QF.
We all know the records of these two in the WC.
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@CMW, I hear you and I know France had brilliant patches against the Kiwis, but in the late 90s the Wobblies actually held the Bledisloe having won it off the Kiwis in ’98 and retained it in ’99, so had form for beating them. We’re often told that our wins in ’07 and ’19 are cheapened by not beating the Kiwis (and in ’07 the Aussies as well), but it’s pretty speculative to say they were the best when they got knocked in the QF in 2007, whatever the circumstances. Even last year, they stitched us up in a ten minute period in a match I was feeling pretty good about. After we lost, there was very little moaning in the pub I was in, with most of us still believing that we could beat them with a different bounce of the ball. The last couple of seasons have been very tight between us and them, so I don’t buy it that they were overwhelming favourites. Marginal, maybe, but not with clear water.
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Oh good. Early plane home again. Rugby sucks.
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CMW, I’d suggest you watch again the first half of that 99 SF.
France were far from dominated by NZ, and had many opportunities as well. It wasn’t some sort of magical inspiration that blew the ABs but the continuity of the game. Many French players said later that they knew at HT that they’d win.
France were better than the ABs and just not as good as Australia.
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@Deebee, Flair – I didn’t claim NZ were better than Aus, just that Aus didn’t have to beat the best. I’ve seen that semi-final a few times as I love it as a game, but regardless I would have been amazed (and not alone in this) if NZ hadn’t given the Aussies a better game in the final than France did.
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As for 2007, defining England as ‘the best’ in terms of SA having to beat ‘the best’ is really pushing the boat out.
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They beat Argentina in the semi-final That was the real final.
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The secret is – let someone else beat New Zealand. ’99, ’03. ’07, ’19 – the side that beat the All Blacks lost their next game.
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CMW, so you’re basically saying that NZ were better than France in 99 because they’d’ve given a better game to Oz in the final?
As speculation goes, this is still a strange logic to me.
I wonder why we bother playing pool games, QF and SF then.
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I’m saying there are reasons why NZ were favourites going in to the semi-final and that they are somewhat backed up by the known fact that France got beaten by Aus the following week by more than NZ ever have in the 170 games they’ve played against the Aussies.
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I did a quick research about the order of the games.
I don’t know about the rest of the games but apparently the organiser has the choice for the opening feature.
France could play NZ, for obvious PR reasons (what a better way to launch the WC) but it spectacularly backfired in 2003 when they chose to play Argentina instead of playing a weaker Ireland. France may opt then to play Italy.
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CMW, you’re shifting the goal post. No one denies NZ were favourites but thats wasn’t the point, was it?
The point was that Oz, as the ultimate winner, had to beat the best of the rest.
France were better than NZ. The outcome of the final has nothing to do with it.
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I think TomP is probably right in this (not that I want to agree with him), but there is a good case for England having peaked after the SF and not being 100% (mentally as much as anything) in the Final last year. I can’t clearly remember England-France from 2007 other than it was a bit of a wrestling match and England’s pack won the day.
I also don’t think the current Kiwi crop is miles better than anyone like they were for the decade or so before that – the chasers have definitely closed the gap. They’ve got some great backs, but not so much in the pack anymore and Argentina and Australia (neither vintage sides) exposed them badly at times this year.
Last year Joe Moody with 40 caps was the most experienced prop they had and he’s shit. Kiwis have problems there at the moment. Whitelock and Retallick excellent 2nd row, but not head and shoulders better than the Boks or England – and Tuipoluto on the pine a marked step down in quality. Loosies? Reid held together by masking tape and past his prime (but still excellent), whilst Sam Cane, Luke Jacobsen and Matt Todd will never go down as great All Blacks, although Ardie Savea may, may not.
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@Flair – I just think it’s part of the very essence of sport that the ‘best’ teams don’t necessarily win knockout competitions. A little less so in rugby than say football, but still true. I also think the best team on the day doesn’t always win as there’s luck and refereeing etc to take into account.
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The main difference between 99 and 07 is that in 99 France were the best side on the day whereas in 07 they were lucky.
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FWIW I was very much supporting France in both games as I generally do when they’re not playing Wales (a little less so in the turgid years that now seem to have been left behind).
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It’s taken a long time but you’re finally learning.
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Changed my mind, you’re talking shit, as usual. England peaked in the Final against the Boks, just we smashed the shit out of them after a training run in our semi against Wales. There we go, offended you on multiple levels, plus half the other posters here. My job is done.
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@Deebee – I still can’t really understand the risk SA took by not playing a bit more against Wales. Still they got away with it, but it was pretty daft.
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‘I wonder why we bother playing pool games, QF and SF then.’
I’ve been wondering this too. Best to scrap the whole thing.
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CMW, Wales gave us a helluva game, as you did in the 2015 QF. We haven’t had an easy time of it against Wales in recent years and I think our guys were probably a little wary. No such worries against England.
Interestingly (or not) this will be the first time the Boks and Ireland play each other at the World Cup. It’s a tough group, with SA, Ireland, Scotland and probably one of Tonga or Samoa and then whoever Europe 2 is. Does the 1 or 2 for those denote how they finished in the qualifying pools? If so, it’s likely to be one of Spain, Romania, Portugal or Russia. Not too bad, but the other matches are hard.
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