What a first round that was: grit, determination, superb skills and complete brainfarts. Think the competition is wide open, and unsure where to make your Superbru picks? Don’t worry, our OvallyBalls experts on crack are here to progrocknIksate what will happen this weekend.
Deebee7 was quick off the mark with his predictions:
England, chastised and sobered by the realisation that they couldn’t simply kick ‘n bosh their way past feisty Scotland pick the biggest side in rugby history so they can KICK ‘N BOSH their way over, through and not around Italy, who, having realised that their first-up tackling was well below par and know what’s coming their way, pick 15 Saffas to BOSH BACK against England. Problem is, they’re playing for Italy because they can’t make it into better sides. England by 47 despite themselves.
Scotland, fresh from the Trashing of Twickers™ are primed, ready, purring and full of confidence for the visit of an abject Welsh side that had to rely on red mist and a brain fart to see off Ireland. The mercenary English Army and Tartan Boks who were apparently the only reason Edward’s Army tripped at Twickers have a solid tight five, fury in the loose forwards, flying outside backs and the Best 10 in the World™ ready to unleash hell on the journeymen from the Valleys. Thing is, it’s not their Game of the Season™ and with all their raison d’etre exhausted last week, Wales will give them the fright of their lives! But not enough to actually win it. Scotland by a couple in a low-scoring affair.
Ireland, stunned by stupidity and seething with intent, await the thoroughbreds of France, fresh from their opening training run against Italy. Expect a titanic struggle up front with neither pack giving an inch (easy on the Karl button, Iks). Ireland should be without Sexton which gives France a HUGE advantage behind the pie-munchers, and with the greyhounds and whippets willing to give it a lash, it could be a long afternoon at the Palindrome. But if the Irish are one thing, it’s bloody minded, determined and fucking difficult to boss around on their home patch (thank dog no World Cups hosted there yet). Too close to call!
Chimpie is more or less in agreement:
Scotland > Wales by 4
This goes against my deep-seated pessimism but got to back form at some point. General cohesion will keep Wales pinned back but usual inability to get points on the board will keep the boyos in it. Wales have some quality players in there and they’ll get over the line a couple of times.
England > Italy by 30
Hope Italy put up more of fight than last week. They’ve got a few bright sparks – like the look of Garbisi – but this is a very young and inexperienced team, too early for them to start pulling out results. England will grind and kick Italy down and run up a respectable score with the Best Fly-Half in the World playing. Eddie will then drop Ford for the next game.
Ireland > France by 2
Yes, I’m going out on a limb here for Ireland without human missile POM to put a shock one over on France. Would it be that much of a shock though? France ran up 35 points against Ireland last time out but there was only an 8 point difference at full time. Ireland at home hurting after last week’s effort vs. Wales, I’m going with a home victory here.
ClydeMillarWynant is ever the misfit:
Wales > Scotland by 1
Entire game takes place in Wales half giving Scotland an impressive 6-0 lead only for LRZ to go the length of the field at the death. Biggar converts from the touchline and bounces around on his space-hoppers to general disgust.
France > Ireland by 6
Ireland are just the sort of miserable bastards to spoil everything by grinding down France and stopping the beautiful game at source. But there’s been positive beaver news today.
England > Italy by 40
Italy are crap.
BorderBoy couldn’t resist bringing Prog into it:
Nazareth > Budgie (by 10)
Genesis > PFM (by 25)
U2 < Lazuli (by 12)
SladeIs#42 is sucking up to the mister:
Wales> Scotland by 4 – winners have enough ‘dog’ to resist Scots missing last week’s adrenalin rush
Ireland > France by 3 – game of the week-end – Ireland a team full of grit and experience
England > Italy by 25 – in reality, score could be anything dependant on tactics adopted: an inaccurate kicking game could make it closer, as could a good performance by Italy up to the 60 minute mark causing confusion in England’s headless ranks. If Italy collapse England could get 70. Whatever, it’s unlikely to be a credit to the Competition. As stated above, Ford will be back to the bench afterwards and George restored.
Craigsman is getting all political on our arses:
Sturgeon > Drakeford by 5LePen Macron > Adams by 10
Bojo > Berlusconi by 15
I was just going to include far right politicians / arseholes. I managed a few arseholes but couldn’t be bothered to Welsh political arseholery.
Sunbeamtim goes for the philosophical approach:
Looks like Big Faz realises that France are going to hammer Ireland whichever way, so has thrown in a 9 and 10 as sacrificial lambs to protect young payers. End of JGP and BB’s International careers ?
Very enthusiastic about all the talk of how disgraceful Italy are, and how they should be thrown out of the comp, and how its a non game for a proper side. I see Italy as being fitter and more coherent than they have ever been, and one step off defensively is all it takes to be hammered by a Tier one side. Setting someone up for a big fall somewhere this season.
Scotland and Wales both hammered by injuries, too close to call, game of the weekend.
Flair99‘s been watching my nightmares:
England by 29
Scotland by 7
France by 11.
Don’t harrumph me, I was wrong twice last week.
Not sure the omission of Sexton and Murray is a good thing for France but it is certainly a good thing for them. Enough of these concussed players blaming the doctors. I hope they recover soon.
Onna telly this week
Friday 12th February
| Gloucester v Bristol | 19:45 | BT Sport 1 |
| Sale v Bath | 20:00 | BT Sport Extra |
Saturday 13th February
| England v Italy | 14:15 | ITV |
| Harlequins v Leicester | 16:00 | BT Sport Extra |
| Exeter v London Irish | 16:15 | BT Sport Extra |
| Scotland v Wales | 16:45 | BBC1 / S4C |
Sunday 14th February
| Worcester v Wasps | 13:00 | BT Sport 1 |
| Ireland v France | 15:00 | ITV |
Ovally Balls 
If Craigs plays his cards right he’ll have a free gardener for life.
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Craigs’ kentish train bromance with chek will have stalled a bit.
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Ooh, linkedin buddies? You’ll know real names and everything.
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Would be good to have cheksy back. Along with several others.
Wonder how his eternal start of 6N optimism is faring.
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Ooh er Eddie!
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/16/jones-claims-englands-poor-six-nations-start-down-to-drop-in-arousal-level
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SBT, Revolution from Above rather than from Below with Henry VIII, innit. He did end up killing quite a few Catholics, mind.
Brookter, Luther was a genius. Him and Cranach anyway. They worked out a way to get their message across to thousands and thousands in a revolutionary way. Also a vicious anti-semite, of course.
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I bet Chek got the horn when Scotland beat England. Or his “spaghetti hit the ceiling” as he once put it.
Swift detumescence when watching the Miracle of Murrayfield ©.
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Miracle of Murrayfield ©
*boaks*
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@Tomp
Also fair to say that Catholics killed rather a lot of Protestants – not to mention Hugenots, Cathars etc
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We weren’t taught much about Martin Luther at school. When he was mentioned he certainly wasn’t described as a genius.
Now Mother Teresa or Padre Pio on the other hand……
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Of course, Sladey.
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Chimpie, Typical Scottish Calvinist/Knoxian thinking that magic has been eliminated from the world.
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Basically, due to covid the finances of the IRFU and the 4 branches are a sorry state and lots and lots of contracts are due for renewal, so rumours will abound. And from what I know from Munster, it’s probably the middle that will get squeezed – promising youth (so hands off Coombes, Wycherleys, Healey, Crowley, Casey, Daly) and (some) stars will be kept. I’d say there may be some big names across all provinces leaving for a last hurrah….
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In my memory, the Reformation and its reverberations seemed to be to the only things we covered in history at all whether UK history – Henry VIII, Cranmer, Knox, dissolution of the monasteries and years after puritans – Cromwell, English Civil war, James II, William of Orange and in Europe.. Luther, Calvin, Charles V, Diet of Worms, Counter Reformation, Council of Trent, Thirty Years War, Gustavus Adolphus, Defenestration of Prague.
And to be fair – at my Catholic school – it wasn’t one sided either
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Haven’t been around much today due to the beating quota I’ve been trying to meet.
Punishment at Craig’s House is random, often repeated, arbitrary and often unjustified.
But reduced by 25% if a child is Irish.
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Haven’t seen Chek in a while. Also, I think he was moving so I may not bump into him again.
I like to think that it wasn’t so he could get another train to avoid me.
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Plus, I’m considering getting an electric car for the commute if I don’t have to go in as much anymore.
So that’ll put an end to it unless I stalk him.
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Catching up after an afternoon at the vets (split claw on front left paw, 30 minutes, £3 a minute).
@CMW: Yes, Dominion is as readable as the others. He’s got a gift for choosing interesting events and drawing out their implications into a coherent story.
@Ticht: You’re right, it’s the one with the crucifixion on the front. I think the UK and US editions have different cover pictures and subtitles (presumably because there are more people with guns over there who get offended by that sort of thing).
@Tim: I found it ironic that Holland’s thesis is basically that our modern view on human rights and dignity can almost exclusively from Christianity, which has led many to claim this as a reason to be Christian, when he’s just spent 700 pages outlining in detail what the horrors that Christians have inflicted on others and especially on themselves.
@Tomp: there’s a recent The Rest is History podcast (with Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook) where they claim that the nastiness we deplore on social media is simple a repeat with different technology of what happened after Gutenberg and the spread of literacy. Basically, give us a new communication technology and the first thing we’ll do is start spreading conspiracy theories and slagging off rivals. Luther was very good at it.
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Brookter – is that 700 pages solely on Sunday Mass?
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Craigs, funnily enough, no…
It does spent a lot of time discussing the RFU Disciplinary Punishment Schedule[1] though, which for serious offences includes placing the guilty part under an upturned scrum[2] then covering them with milk and honey and watching as they slowly get eaten to death by scrumhalves[3].
Nasty.
[1] Or Persians under the reign of Darius
[2] Boat
[3] Scrumhalves.[4]
[4] Or ants and other vermin.
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Brookter, It’d be wiser to become a Jacobin or Painite than a Christian if you want some good Human Rights action.
I recommend reading some Samuel Moyn for all this. Not Enough is a good place to start. Not sure if it’s in that book or one of his others where he says it just wasn’t a thing in the West until the 1970s. There’s also a story about how the Shah hosted a conference for the UN International Year of Human Rights and claimed that the Persians invented them.
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Brookter – ouch! Give the poor mite a kiss on the nose from me.
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Tom,
Holland’s thesis is that our concept of Human Rights (and science, for that matter) was invented and developed by Christians on Christian grounds, and Jacobins, Painites, Humanists build on that — it’s possible to be against Christianity, but not on the specific grounds that it’s anti-human rights / anti-science, because those very ideas don’t exist independently: they came from the development of Christianity.
It’s an interesting read and I think he makes a good case for his main points. It’s not a Christian apologetic either.
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I just have, Thaum, thanks. He was suitably grateful.
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Holland’s thesis is that our concept of Human Rights (and science, for that matter) was invented and developed by Christians on Christian grounds
I think this is bollocks, because they quite obviously go back at least to the Ancient Greeks. Sure, some Christians developed these ideas, but they would have been those who were quite aware of Ancient Greece and who built on those concepts.
There’s really not much in the OT/Torah about either science or human rights, and not a precious lot in the NT either, bar the odd ‘blessèd be the cheesemakers’ bit amongst all the gore and smiting.
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What’s our (Holland’s) concept of Human Rights? If it’s social or economic justice, there’s stuff in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and Proverbs plus in the New Testament. But there’re the Greeks and the Stoics as well.
This is nice from Moyn:
Christianity is self-evidently universalistic. But if it is one thing to be for cosmopolitanism of one form or another, another to be for human rights specifically, then the mere fact of Christian universalism is no argument for awarding credit to the religion for the conceptual or political possibility of human rights. On the
Humanity before Human Rights basis of prior universalisms, notably those of Hebrew prophets,
Christianity inspired a number of its own over the centuries. Its founders, Jesus and Paul, offered apocalyptic visions of the imminent kingdom of God on Earth. Soon, the religion offered a hopeful message to the meek around the Mediterranean and, after the emperor Constantine’s conversion, it helped Roman concepts of political belonging travel from cities into the countryside. A thousand years later, it undergirded medieval natural law. And though its egalitarianism is famous, the cultural and political implications of Christianity from age to age and place to place were simply too different, in need of too much drastic transformation, to approach modern conceptions on their own.
The premise of accounts that try to claim more, after all, is that there is only one move from particular cultures to universal morality to be made—and Christianity is it.
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Ooh, linkedin buddies? You’ll know real names and everything.
Chek was coming down to Africa for a conference and a bit nervous. Contacted me because I knew the lay of the land. Sorted him with some fabulous restaurants.
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Messed that copy’n’paste up.
Better version:
Christianity is self-evidently universalistic. But if it is one thing to be for cosmopolitanism of one form or another, another to be for human rights specifically, then the mere fact of Christian universalism is no argument for awarding credit to the religion for the conceptual or political possibility of human rights. On the basis of prior universalisms, notably those of Hebrew prophets, Christianity inspired a number of its own over the centuries. Its founders, Jesus and Paul, offered apocalyptic visions of the imminent kingdom of God on Earth. Soon, the religion offered a hopeful message to the meek around the Mediterranean and, after the emperor Constantine’s conversion, it helped Roman concepts of political belonging travel from cities into the countryside. A thousand years later, it undergirded medieval natural law. And though its egalitarianism is famous, the cultural and political implications of Christianity from age to age and place to place were simply too different, in need of too much drastic transformation, to approach modern conceptions on their own.
The premise of accounts that try to claim more, after all, is that there is only one move from particular cultures to universal morality to be made—and Christianity is it.
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I don’t think there’s much of an argument to be made for Christian egalitarianism either. It starts with Dog the Father handing down the law-that-must-be-obeyed, and of course this was interpreted by its adherents – fairly rationally – as the foundation of the Great Chain of Being.
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The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.
A very Christian hymn, and not in the slightest bit egalitarian.
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Right-wing commentators will argue that the UK (actually, more specifically England, and NI too) is a ‘Christian’ country despite practically nobody being an active adherent. But I think they are right, as the Divine Right of Kings is still accepted. Internalised oppression.
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OT – love it :-)
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Can I have a kiss on the nose too?
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No, but the cat can.
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Thaum, Tom
Holland discusses the points you (and Moyne) make. It’s not that some elements of Human Rights didn’t exist before — on the contrary, it’s the way in which Christianity brought together various elements from many sources into something new, not least the melding of Judaism and its insistence on the Law, with Greek ideals. He traces these strands from a long way back.
He makes some very good points (even if I don’t agree with absolutely everything in it — and neither he nor I think the book is a justification to stop being agnostic / atheist), but there’s no point in trying to defend my brief summary against your brief quotation from Moyne…
I think you’d enjoy it.
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“Holland discusses the points you (and Moyne) make.”
TomP and Ugo are always making the same points.
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I’m still trying to work out when the guy who plays Spiderman got into philosophy and religion.
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Scrumhalves.[4]
[4] Or ants and other vermin.
Not very Christian of you, DCI. Or perhaps the essence of Christianity, depending on which side of the sword you’re on?
Lovely debate I missed out on last night! I think you’ll find that people’s views of Christian values and Western civilisation differ markedly in ex-colonies from what the belief is in Europe. Not a lot of fondness for them as tools of political organisation.
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Cheesy toast melts
If you need to use your milk up rather more quickly, Love Food Hate Waste offers a recipe for cheesy toast melts. It’s a slightly simplified rarebit, essentially, made with milk, cheese and chopped spring onions. Not only does it make a delicious (and miraculously child-pleasing) lunch, but time it right and it becomes the perfect way to use up leftover milk, spare bits of going-stale bread and old cheese. There, you’ve reduced your food waste three times over.
Sorry Chimpie. We all know where this is going.
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Our hero and benefactor once more unto the breach!
Haskell and Cudmore launch new lobby group with letter to World Rugby
‘Progressive Rugby’ want urgent reforms to the sport
‘World Rugby has a moral duty to minimise risk’
It’s a good thing, I think, and it’s high time that rugby took a serious look at the long-term injuries and consequences of playing the game.
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A little bit of signing news for Glasgow, they’ve secured the services of Wallaby backrower Jack Dempsey from the Waratahs. He has had some injury issues, but hopefully he can kickstart his career in the sunnier climes of Glasgow’s West End, where the weather is always good for healing aches and pains. (cough)
Also, Junior AB and Highlanders back three speedster Josh McKay, part of the 2017 U20s world cup winning side. He still a youngster, 23, which is around the age Sean Maitland moved north, but as far as I can tell, and despite the surname, McKay isn’t SQ.
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Morning Deebee.
I thought you’d appreciate Tom (not the actor despite the views of thousands on Twitter) Holland’s views of scrum halves, but what can you expect: he’s more of a cricket fan.
He spends quite a lot of time on the various experiences and perceptions of Christianity outside Europe, and he’s careful to distinguish between the ‘Church’ as organisations and Christianity as a religion which synthesised and fostered beliefs. He’s also not out to justify either of them only to explain the impact it has had on us (and non-European cultures as well). As I said, it’s not a Christian apologetic.
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Refit,
The Twitter fans of @TomHolland1966 appear to be equally baffled that @holland_tom spends so much time talking about cricket and Ancient Greeks.
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@Thaum, oh my dog how I loathe that song, and others we had to sing at assembly at our school.
otoh, there is a great song by Brian McNeil, which tells some of the history of Scotland by way of a Yew tree which is just outside Edinburgh. John Knox is reputed to have preached from under it. Knox was born in Haddington and gives his name to the high school there. They were another of our local rugby rivals.
I’ll post the lyrics of the whole thing, a little bit of poetry on a cold February morning never hurt anyone…
The Yew Tree
cho: My bonnie yew tree
Tell me what did you see
A mile frae Pentcaitland, on the road to the sea
Stands a yew tree a thousand years old
And the old women swear by the grey o’ their hair
That it knows what the future will hold
For the shadows of Scotland stand round it
‘Mid the kail and the corn and the kye
All the hopes and the fears of a thousand long years
Under the Lothian sky
Did you look through the haze o’ the lang summer days
Tae the South and the far English border
A’ the bonnets o’ steel on Flodden’s far field
Did they march by your side in good order
Did you ask them the price o’ their glory
When you heard the great slaughter begin
For the dust o’ their bones would rise up from the stones
To bring tears to the eyes o’ the wind
Not once did you speak for the poor and the weak
When the moss-troopers lay in your shade
To count out the plunder and hide frae the thunder
And share out the spoils o’ their raid
But you saw the smiles o’ the gentry
And the laughter of lords at their gains
When the poor hunt the poor across mountain and moor
The rich man can keep them in chains
Did you no’ think tae tell when John Knox himsel’
Preached under your branches sae black
To the poor common folk who would lift up the yoke
O’ the bishops and priests frae their backs
But you knew the bargain he sold them
And freedom was only one part
For the price o’ their souls was a gospel sae cold
It would freeze up the joy in their hearts
And I thought as I stood and laid hands on your wood
That it might be a kindness to fell you
One kiss o’ the axe and you’re freed frae the racks
O’ the sad bloody tales that men tell you
But a wee bird flew out from your branches
And sang out as never before
And the words o’ the song were a thousand years long
And to learn them’s a long thousand more
Last chorus:
My bonnie yew tree
Tell me what CAN you see
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…and now that Slider is back, I’ve only just noticed a stonking great big Karl in the first line of the last verse.
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Interesting read back. I think that when people attribute rights to religion they miss a couple of things:
1) Rarely did these rights originally go to women initially who were seen as property.
2) Relatedly, moral progress has typically been made when the societies in question dropped the shittier aspects. So things like women’s rights and autonomy and gay marriage have come as societies become less religious.
The usual throwback to point 2 is what about the Nazis and Communists being atheist murderers. I think that the obvious answer is that the murderous aspects of these regimes had nothing to do with the atheism and everything to do with the vicious totalitarian nature nazism and communism but you can’t convince everyone.
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Craigs, that old ditty about power and absolute power comes to mind, and all the isms and ists, religious and political, are just vehicles men use as justifications for their brutality
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soz, that’s a bit nihilist, but I’m a bit short of time atm
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Craigs,
The subjugation of women has been (nearly) universal throughout history, and the Churches’ record on this has been just as appalling. But that’s not the same as saying that Christianity had no part if developing the ideas which led to more enlightened views.
Holland’s point isn’t that Christianity hasn’t fostered utterly horrifying attitudes and committed countless atrocities in the name of religion, because of course it has. It’s that the playing out of the different tensions / elements that came from other cultures (Greek idealism, Judaic insistence on the Word of God as Law etc) resulted in the development of ideas which we now think of as universal. E.g. Not that the Churches have the last say on what Human Rights is, but that the way we think about them was heavily influenced by arguments within Christianity’s history.
Similarly, he tests the idea that Christianity (again, it’s not to be conflated with the Church) has always been anti-science. Of course parts of it have been, stupidly so, but important elements haven’t been, and they contributed to the development of what we call science. Oh, and the Galileo story is mostly myth (I’ve seen it debunked in more detail elsewhere, and not just by Catholic apologists.)
And because for 1500 years or so Christianity was the dominant force in the West, with the Catholic Church in particular often projecting a transnational power, those arguments and assumptions have heavily influenced the way we think, in ways that we don’t always acknowledge.
The idea that Nazis and Communists were atheists and therefore evil is a daft one, isn’t it? Particularly as both operated pretty much as religions themselves during their worse excesses.
Anyway: Holland’s argument is long and not really susceptible to soundbites, but it’s well written and informative — if you read it, I’d be interested to hear what you think. I read it a year ago, and I’ve been meaning to go through it again.
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