I agree that this England team are largely better passers than previous ones, but to some extent think the comparisons that favour them over past teams are a little over the top. They did only really play one team that look to dominate possession against good sides and that was in the final and after the first half hour or so they were dominated even though they still got a draw. I can think of England sides that wouldn’t have gone as defensive as this one did (some of them also lost in penalty shootouts just at earlier stages of tournaments) and because of this Harry Maguire ended up booting the ball into touch every bit as much as some England centre-halves of years gone by.
I felt Southgate needed to make some attacking substitutions a good bit earlier though of course we’ll never know if it really would have made a difference. I’m both relieved and disappointed that they didn’t win, it’s a strange thing.
CMW, I agree. Maybe even more than three had a chance. France blew it v Switzerland and Belgium lost their second best player to injury and their best player was half-crocked. Switzerland and Denmark were both fine sides, too.
“part entitlement that they should win cos they invented the game and all that.”
Yes, but if we’re being kind then we might admit that they’re right that they are the great underachievers out of all the countries with the big leagues etc. Spain probably felt that too until their winning run of course.
Spain sort of did but there’s a lot of regional or national, take your pick, politics involved in that, which always gave them a get out. And they used to have a massive complex about that in terms of not thinking they could win because of the regional or national differences.
I tend to think that’s a bit spurious when the two most successful European countries don’t have very long histories of being individual countries at all and one of the other big ones fields four teams because of ‘regional/national differences’.
And for a long time you could throw in The Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia which seem to have turned out to have their share of the same (as if that was a surprise to anyone).
Spanish people I know felt that before 2008 there were “reasons” why they didn’t feel they could win the Big Championships, though they did win a Euros in the 60s. Never felt that football was a Spanish thing and should return home.
Czechoslovakia had strongish teams but never a strong league. USSR similar but rarely a strong team. Yugoslavia is my current great lost love of sporting achievement. Basketball, Handball, Water Polo, Soccer all strong.
I’m not saying the Spanish regional thing doesn’t exist or that they don’t bang on about it as I realise they do, more that it’s just a form of dubious exceptionalism as the same things have always applied to almost everyone else apart from the much smaller countries who are, well, much smaller.
Right. The Dutch have the same sort of thing with Rotterdam v Amsterdam and occasionally do well.
My point was the Spanish and others don’t see football as belonging to them. The song does that. And kind of reduces history to 1966 and then some tears. I don’t think that’s right.
Technically the “coming home” bit refers to the codification of the laws of association football in England in 1863. A lot of football code laws where codified around the same time (Australian, rugby, American etc) so it’s not unreasonable to suggest it started here.
Possibly told this story here before, but a week before the 2010 World Cup I was in Bilbao for a conference and my boss asked me to get a Fernando Torres shirt for her kid. Couldn’t find one anywhere and eventually ended up in a sports shop and asked the guy behind the counter. He gave me a Liverpool one, so I asked for a Spain one in my awful Spanish. He looked at me and said in English “If you want a Spain jersey, go to Spain.” I did. Got one in Madrid at the airport.
My view of it was that Italy were knocked off kilter by the early goal but gradually (after about 20 mins) – whether by design or because Italy gradually got themselves together – England became too passive/defensive.
Now a lot of Italian possession was quite lateral – but they were trying to create a dog-leg or gap in the lines to play through or get an England defender to “bite” down and get a free or a yellow or a red. In the second half, you saw that more. And with 7 defenders – the forwards have zero support, you’re knocking long balls up to them in isolated positions or they drop deep to get closer to play but bring defenders with them compressing play in your half.
By the end of 90 – Italy had been the better team – had Chiesa stayed on they might have had that bit extra to win.
Penalty strategy was mystifying – I guess it’s binary…Van Gaal switched goalies in 2014 WC and NL won – he’s a tactical genius. Once again, though – team winning the toss goes first and wins. I’m beginning to wonder now if teams know this and it’s becoming a self-fulfilling thing.
codification of the laws of association football in England in 1863
If anyone here hasn’t read it – How Football Began by Tony Collins is really good. Puts the development of the various “football” codes in their social, economic, and historical contexts.
“Once again, though – team winning the toss goes first and wins.”
Maybe, but there have been a few examples this tournament of the team going first also being the first to miss so it isn’t just the getting ahead thing.
World in Motion – probably cos it came out when I was 18 and is a good tune.
Vindaloo is all right as well. Don’t mind a bit of whacked out light surrealism. They did another one, no? I probably heard it but can’t recall it. So cautious support for Fat Les.
Tbh breaking through the cycle of disappointing early exits was massive imo. Beating the German’s, believing that we could go all the way, that’s a big deal for England. Yeah we missed out at the end but this is a young squad so hopefully they haven’t peaked. Anyway
I didn’t go out of my way to find out what happened in the aftermath of the football but seeing it now I fucking hate those racist synts. And all the twats who had to fight and trash the place. Fucking embarrassing.
Ugo is right here:
"This team has been a pillar of unity and hope and joy. The players didn’t let us down last night – it was the fans."@ugomonye shares his experience of the 'utterly disgraceful' behaviour he encountered at Wembley – and the racist abuse of England's players 👇#BBC606pic.twitter.com/r1NDQnFlB4
That’s a very strong ‘A’ team, probably about half of those starters aren’t 1st choice, although I have no idea who’s fit and not anymore (including Covid casualties). To come back in all things being equal, you’d see Pollard at 10, Mapimpi at 11, Mbonambi at 2, Malherbe at 3, de Jager at 5, Kolisi at 6 and Vermeulen at 8. So five of the 1st choice pack, although Vermeulen and de Jager probably not available anyway. Either way, if the Boks are to win the Test series, this side has to win or get very close on Wednesday.
Deebs, it’s the lads who didn’t play v Georgia and filling in the Covid absentees as far as I can see. Second row and full back is a bit short after Willie, Eben and Sous.
Am looking forward to seeing how van Staden goes. He’s a fine player.
Willemse covers FB as well and is better there than at 10 where he’s a walking turnstile. or more accurately, a jumping out of the way “on yer way good sir!” turnstile. Although better than Curwin “Naas is my hero’ Bosch.
I have no idea about Nicolaas Janse van Rensburg as a lock, but PS du Toit can cover there as well, having originally been a lock. The back row is a little callow though. Possibly see both Janse van Rensburg and du Toit in the 2nd row late on, with Elstadt and Kwagga in the back row.
Chimpie, the word on the street (virtual one) here is that the Lions are vulnerable to a very direct, physical approach. Morne Steyn at 10 is perfect for putting up the bombs and kicking for field position, so I’d expect the A team to use this approach initially to see how the Lions cope. The Lions scrum hasn’t looked all that against relatively mediocre opposition so far, so let’s see if Gats is playing possum or if there are genuine chinks in the armour.
Fair comment Deebs – I think those potential weaknesses are seen from here, too.
I am sure Gats will be aware – how he manages it will be fascinating.
I wonder whether they anticipated a tougher match-up this week?
Rassie saying today that Duane Vermeulen might be ready in time for the final test. Could be a bluff, probably isn’t. It’s bad news for SA as he’s one of the best.
This is what all Springbok fans think about everyone always.
True. Although this vintage of Bok forwards is pretty decent. Also, I spent the best part of 20 years telling anyone who would listen that battering a Kiwi scrum meant nothing if they were killing us at the breakdown and shifting it wide with speed.* I think this is what Gats wants to do. I think the Boks know that too. I think a lot. Most of it is pure shite.
Rassie sent me a whatsapp earlier. He said he’s been looking at your 2021 record – supporting England in the 6 Nations, supporting your Lions in the hundreds of local competitions, supporting England in the Euros – and wonders if you could support the Gatz’s Lionz for the series.
Ovally Balls 
I agree that this England team are largely better passers than previous ones, but to some extent think the comparisons that favour them over past teams are a little over the top. They did only really play one team that look to dominate possession against good sides and that was in the final and after the first half hour or so they were dominated even though they still got a draw. I can think of England sides that wouldn’t have gone as defensive as this one did (some of them also lost in penalty shootouts just at earlier stages of tournaments) and because of this Harry Maguire ended up booting the ball into touch every bit as much as some England centre-halves of years gone by.
I felt Southgate needed to make some attacking substitutions a good bit earlier though of course we’ll never know if it really would have made a difference. I’m both relieved and disappointed that they didn’t win, it’s a strange thing.
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CMW, I agree. Maybe even more than three had a chance. France blew it v Switzerland and Belgium lost their second best player to injury and their best player was half-crocked. Switzerland and Denmark were both fine sides, too.
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“part entitlement that they should win cos they invented the game and all that.”
Yes, but if we’re being kind then we might admit that they’re right that they are the great underachievers out of all the countries with the big leagues etc. Spain probably felt that too until their winning run of course.
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Spain sort of did but there’s a lot of regional or national, take your pick, politics involved in that, which always gave them a get out. And they used to have a massive complex about that in terms of not thinking they could win because of the regional or national differences.
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I tend to think that’s a bit spurious when the two most successful European countries don’t have very long histories of being individual countries at all and one of the other big ones fields four teams because of ‘regional/national differences’.
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And for a long time you could throw in The Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia which seem to have turned out to have their share of the same (as if that was a surprise to anyone).
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Spanish people I know felt that before 2008 there were “reasons” why they didn’t feel they could win the Big Championships, though they did win a Euros in the 60s. Never felt that football was a Spanish thing and should return home.
Czechoslovakia had strongish teams but never a strong league. USSR similar but rarely a strong team. Yugoslavia is my current great lost love of sporting achievement. Basketball, Handball, Water Polo, Soccer all strong.
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I’m not saying the Spanish regional thing doesn’t exist or that they don’t bang on about it as I realise they do, more that it’s just a form of dubious exceptionalism as the same things have always applied to almost everyone else apart from the much smaller countries who are, well, much smaller.
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Right. The Dutch have the same sort of thing with Rotterdam v Amsterdam and occasionally do well.
My point was the Spanish and others don’t see football as belonging to them. The song does that. And kind of reduces history to 1966 and then some tears. I don’t think that’s right.
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The song is fairly silly obviously. I think they should be allowed the ‘tears’ or general sense of dismay at their record or whatever it is though!
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Technically the “coming home” bit refers to the codification of the laws of association football in England in 1863. A lot of football code laws where codified around the same time (Australian, rugby, American etc) so it’s not unreasonable to suggest it started here.
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Possibly told this story here before, but a week before the 2010 World Cup I was in Bilbao for a conference and my boss asked me to get a Fernando Torres shirt for her kid. Couldn’t find one anywhere and eventually ended up in a sports shop and asked the guy behind the counter. He gave me a Liverpool one, so I asked for a Spain one in my awful Spanish. He looked at me and said in English “If you want a Spain jersey, go to Spain.” I did. Got one in Madrid at the airport.
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My view of it was that Italy were knocked off kilter by the early goal but gradually (after about 20 mins) – whether by design or because Italy gradually got themselves together – England became too passive/defensive.
Now a lot of Italian possession was quite lateral – but they were trying to create a dog-leg or gap in the lines to play through or get an England defender to “bite” down and get a free or a yellow or a red. In the second half, you saw that more. And with 7 defenders – the forwards have zero support, you’re knocking long balls up to them in isolated positions or they drop deep to get closer to play but bring defenders with them compressing play in your half.
By the end of 90 – Italy had been the better team – had Chiesa stayed on they might have had that bit extra to win.
Penalty strategy was mystifying – I guess it’s binary…Van Gaal switched goalies in 2014 WC and NL won – he’s a tactical genius. Once again, though – team winning the toss goes first and wins. I’m beginning to wonder now if teams know this and it’s becoming a self-fulfilling thing.
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Yeah, that comes to mind every time I hear his name.
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If anyone here hasn’t read it – How Football Began by Tony Collins is really good. Puts the development of the various “football” codes in their social, economic, and historical contexts.
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“Once again, though – team winning the toss goes first and wins.”
Maybe, but there have been a few examples this tournament of the team going first also being the first to miss so it isn’t just the getting ahead thing.
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I see Tomp as more of a Fat Les fan anyway.
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Lionz for Wednesday
British and Irish Lions: Watson; Rees-Zammit, Harris, Aki, Adams; Biggar, Murray (capt); Jones, Owens, Sinckler, Itoje, Henderson, Navidi, Curry, Faletau.
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Vunipola, Fagerson, Beard, Beirne, Simmonds, Davies, Daly.
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World in Motion – probably cos it came out when I was 18 and is a good tune.
Vindaloo is all right as well. Don’t mind a bit of whacked out light surrealism. They did another one, no? I probably heard it but can’t recall it. So cautious support for Fat Les.
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Hmm, no place for OF in the 23. Is Gats going Biggar-Aki at 10-12? For the Tests, obviously. has Furlong played yet? Don’t recall him on the park.
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Furlong played last Saturday
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Got to feel for the ladz who missed in the shoot out last night. Usual scum are crawling out of their holes to give them abuse.
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Tbh breaking through the cycle of disappointing early exits was massive imo. Beating the German’s, believing that we could go all the way, that’s a big deal for England. Yeah we missed out at the end but this is a young squad so hopefully they haven’t peaked. Anyway
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Beating the German’s what?
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Goal
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Or goalie
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One of them things.
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I see.
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I didn’t go out of my way to find out what happened in the aftermath of the football but seeing it now I fucking hate those racist synts. And all the twats who had to fight and trash the place. Fucking embarrassing.
Ugo is right here:
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I’m not sure where in Europe you can host the Euros if you want it to be played without screaming racists frothing at the mouth.
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The French press being rather sniffy about a new pizza from Dominos in Japan:
https://www.gqmagazine.fr/lifestyle/article/dominos-a-sans-doute-invente-la-pire-pizza-de-tous-les-temps
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I mean, it wouldn’t hurt if the government didn’t empower the racists, by condemning the anti-racism campaign.
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This is a very strong A side:
South Africa A (v Lions)
15: Willie le Roux 14: Cheslin Kolbe 13: Lukhanyo Am (captain) 12: Damian de Allende 11: Sbu Nkosi
10: Morné Steyn 9: Faf de Klerk
1: Steven Kitshoff 2: Joseph Dweba 3: Trevor Nyakane
4: Eben Etzebeth 5: Franco Mostert
6: Marco van Staden 7: Pieter-Steph du Toit 8: Jasper Wiese
Replacements from:
16: Malcolm Marx 17: Coenie Oosthuizen 18: Vincent Koch 19: Nicolaas Janse van Rensburg 20: Rynhardt Elstadt 21: Herschel Jantjies 22: Jesse Kriel 23: Damian Willemse 24: Kwagga Smith 25: Elton Jantjies
If the Lionz win, it’ll be a huge filip for them.
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That’s a very strong ‘A’ team, probably about half of those starters aren’t 1st choice, although I have no idea who’s fit and not anymore (including Covid casualties). To come back in all things being equal, you’d see Pollard at 10, Mapimpi at 11, Mbonambi at 2, Malherbe at 3, de Jager at 5, Kolisi at 6 and Vermeulen at 8. So five of the 1st choice pack, although Vermeulen and de Jager probably not available anyway. Either way, if the Boks are to win the Test series, this side has to win or get very close on Wednesday.
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Deebs, it’s the lads who didn’t play v Georgia and filling in the Covid absentees as far as I can see. Second row and full back is a bit short after Willie, Eben and Sous.
Am looking forward to seeing how van Staden goes. He’s a fine player.
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Kolbe could play at 15, anywhere in the backs really, but le Roux’s such a key player on attack.
It should be a good game.
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wow. didn’t expect SA to name that strong a side
Gonna be interesting to see how the lionz cope.
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Willemse covers FB as well and is better there than at 10 where he’s a walking turnstile. or more accurately, a jumping out of the way “on yer way good sir!” turnstile. Although better than Curwin “Naas is my hero’ Bosch.
I have no idea about Nicolaas Janse van Rensburg as a lock, but PS du Toit can cover there as well, having originally been a lock. The back row is a little callow though. Possibly see both Janse van Rensburg and du Toit in the 2nd row late on, with Elstadt and Kwagga in the back row.
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Chimpie, the word on the street (virtual one) here is that the Lions are vulnerable to a very direct, physical approach. Morne Steyn at 10 is perfect for putting up the bombs and kicking for field position, so I’d expect the A team to use this approach initially to see how the Lions cope. The Lions scrum hasn’t looked all that against relatively mediocre opposition so far, so let’s see if Gats is playing possum or if there are genuine chinks in the armour.
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suddenly, it gets serious………………..lots of twists in winning or losing this one
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Fair comment Deebs – I think those potential weaknesses are seen from here, too.
I am sure Gats will be aware – how he manages it will be fascinating.
I wonder whether they anticipated a tougher match-up this week?
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Was thinking more ahead to the test series, Deebs.
Elstadt covers lock too.
I don’t know much about Nicolaas JvR either but I do know that the 2012 Affies first team had RG Snyman and Janse van Rensburg locking the scrum.
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This is what all Springbok fans think about everyone always.
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Rassie saying today that Duane Vermeulen might be ready in time for the final test. Could be a bluff, probably isn’t. It’s bad news for SA as he’s one of the best.
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This is what all Springbok fans think about everyone always.
True. Although this vintage of Bok forwards is pretty decent. Also, I spent the best part of 20 years telling anyone who would listen that battering a Kiwi scrum meant nothing if they were killing us at the breakdown and shifting it wide with speed.* I think this is what Gats wants to do. I think the Boks know that too. I think a lot. Most of it is pure shite.
* So not all Bok fans.
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I think Rassie is bluffing. Duane to play on Saturday either for the Stormers or another Bok A side. You heard it here first.
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Rassie sent me a whatsapp earlier. He said he’s been looking at your 2021 record – supporting England in the 6 Nations, supporting your Lions in the hundreds of local competitions, supporting England in the Euros – and wonders if you could support the Gatz’s Lionz for the series.
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Pffft! I’ve also backed Labour in the last three elections and
Oh. Never mind.
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